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Let's be clear: In the 21st Century, Nonreligion is superior to relgion

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slimp_dawg

Posts : 1821
ONLINE

Posted on Jul 31, 2009

I know I'm coming in to this debate very late... but Tod, I gotta ask, are you sayin' that you think the reason we all have similar moral agreement is because God gave it to us? Even those who don't believe were still given those moral feelings by God?
I draw all my own stunts


moondusk

Posts : 33
ONLINE

Posted on Jul 31, 2009

Posted by toddm
Posted by tooscoops
 
our morals are not soley decided by religion.  in fact, for many, they are 0% affected by it.  role models, politics, our own reactions to things... these all have just as much if not more impact on our morals.  i know i'd be sad/angry if my wife cheated on me, so why would i inflict that pain on her?  no god had to exist for me to make that decision.  i could go on with this, but if anyone really needs me to, you are really missing the point.  sure religion CAN teach you some of that stuff, but it can also teach you an eye for an eye, incest, and sexism.  yippee.  religion is just one added way someone can obtain their moral fibre if they so choose.
Ok, but why would you be sad/angry? Why is it wrong? I think you guys are missing the point on how morality equates to God. I'm not saying that you have to have religion in order to determine what is right or wrong. What I'm attempting to do is take it back a step (or two) further and ask the "why" question. Cultures and different belief systems generally believe (as a whole) that adultery is wrong, but why? Because it hurts people? Why does it hurt them? Because it's wrong? Who said it was wrong? You see, it seems to me that there has to be a moral law giver, otherwise, we wouldn't feel bad about anything because it's all relative.

Many atheists argue that society dictates morality. If you dare to take this position, then I must ask you this - what if in 50 yrs from now society agreed that slavery was once again acceptable? Would that make it moral? If society dictates morality, then you must answer "yes" to this question. If society doesn't dictate what is moral or immoral, then what/who does?

Again, I'm not saying that you need religion/Bible/etc to be told what is right or wrong. I'm merely asking that if we all have a sense of morality (atheists, Buddhist, Christians, Muslims, etc), then where did it come from and how is it that humans largely agree on the general moral issues?
 
 
   Okay here is my question if there is a "moral law giver" and lets say it is god then why aren't we born with these morals?  If we were born with these morals then your parents favorite word to you would not have been "no" or the phrase "don't do that".  Morals are actually based off of opinion. What I think is right someone else may thing is wrong. Your morals come from your parents, your environment, how you grew you up, what you've expierenced, etc. We are taught. Then we teach. As you grow you ethier keep the ones taught to you or you add on take away then some peopl feel the need to share and change the world with them.  
 
 As messed up as it sounds if you look at the big picture and see humanity for what it really is there is no right and there is no wrong its just what feels good and what feels bad. If you didnt notice it changes for what people feel they need to accomplish.
 
 
 

paolosmythe
"Unemployed sulker"

Posts : 7120
ONLINE

Posted on Jul 31, 2009

Posted by toddm
I don't believe I stated anywhere that it was just a piece of literature, however, that doesn't mean that certain literary rules do not apply.
 
forgive me if i am wrong, but you attempted to justify ambiguities in biblical text, by saying they needed to be read in conjunction with various literary rules.
 
such is reasonable when reading a novel. 
 
however, when applied to something as fundamentally evocative, manipulative and dogmatic as the 'written word of god' such literary rules need to take into account the consequences of their interpretation and thus, your justification of ambiguities glosses over the manifest damage done, that such a dismissive and dare i say, head in the sand attitude, does its best to avoid!
STICK OPPOSITION MOVEMENT
If you want to act 'serious',
then become a skier!


paolosmythe
"Unemployed sulker"

Posts : 7120
ONLINE

Posted on Jul 31, 2009

Posted by toddm
Ok, but why would you be sad/angry? Why is it wrong?

 
empathy is not a god given capacity.  it is not christian to sympathise.  it is humane.  it is derived from heightened intellectual ability.  not prayer.  this capacity evolved thru natural selection, as it allowed reciprocal beneficial behaviour to flourish.
 
the same is true for the fear of being punished.  as much as one might presume those pleading for forgiveness are really addressing whoever presides over 'judgement day', i would contend that the will of the police and mortal judiciary hold far greater influence.
 
Cultures and different belief systems generally believe (as a whole) that adultery is wrong, but why?
 
this is not true.
 
Many atheists argue that society dictates morality. If you dare to take this position, then I must ask you this - what if in 50 yrs from now society agreed that slavery was once again acceptable?
 
it is not just those evul atheists!  and of course it is true, because it is societal values which impose punishment on amoral behaviour.  and as for your lamentable example.... well all it deserves is:  if my granny had wheels she'd be a bus. 
 
wake up call!!!!! there is still a slave trade, alive and well today!

then where did it come from and how is it that humans largely agree on the general moral issues?
 
it came from our capacity to empathise and to communicate such values to achieve a common, beneficial goal.  simple.
STICK OPPOSITION MOVEMENT
If you want to act 'serious',
then become a skier!


tooscoops
"Funny, but.. FIRED!"

Posts : 5067
ONLINE

Posted on Jul 31, 2009

so the feeling i get about my wife sleeping with someone else would be due to god and his teachings?  so is that the same for assault?  nope... the sad/anger that i was talking about feeling todd, has nothing to do with my religion.  if i was of a faith that it was perfectly fine to have multiple partners, i'd still have those feelings due to jealousy and other normal human reactions... you can't tell me there aren't some mormon wives who aren't jealous that their husband might prefer one of his other wives.
 
its a physical reaction... i still stand by my point that i base my morals and ethics on how i would react to things.  and even a step further, i base them on how i would react if i could possibly put myself in their shoes.
haikus are easy
but sometimes they don't make sense
refrigerator


OddBall22

Posts : 126
ONLINE

Posted on Oct 07, 2009

Im catholic, and when Im home I attend mass. My priest has a masters in Bio-Chem, and he's taking a sabbatical to finish up his PHd. And Im not talking about some "creationism" biology, but rather the real thing.

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