Posted by postapokalyptic

Posted by davesc2

wow, I think someone is a little touchy. 

 

Well, based on your arguments....why do you get to shove your (assumed) atheism down our throats?  If you shouldn't have to listen to the religious people, why should they be forced to listen to you?

 

Fair is fair, right?

 

You can't prove a god doesn't exist any more than they can prove a god does exist.

 

Having said that, I say allow everything (and the ensuing disruptions) or allow nothing....including the annoying atheists.

 

The atheists are the worst because they are, quite literally, arguing about.....nothing!

 

Your mistake is that you automatically assume that the only options are God or Atheism, although I suppose you did openly admit you were making an ass out of yourself as well. But as we know, there are countless religions out there. And all of them are equally indefensible since the singular common trait they share is a reliance on faith. Once you state that you rely on faith for a belief, it isn;t a point you can rationally discuss anymore.

 

Also, when a person doesn't bother to ascibe to a religious faith, they can simply be non-religious. Saying that a non-religious person is just following a different religion is like saying a non-drinker is just another kind of alcoholic. I hope you realize how silly that is.

 

If you allow everything, then as soon as any single religion, regardless of what it is, gains a majority in a country, you support them forcing all people in that country to follow those same beliefs. In essence, you defend countries like Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

 

The only good point you made was "allow nothing", which is exactly what I was arguing.

I didn't want to wade through everything, just want to point out to Lakia his argument of the bible vs science. The bible is specific to ONE faith. Just as other religions beliefs are specific to only them. And there are many, many religions. Science goes across culture, religion and classes. It is what it is. If a theory is wrong in the states, it's wrong in China, Japan, England, and everywhere else. If a scientific theory is correct, it's correct across the world. But in religion, it's up to personal belief and interpretation and can even be different amongst people in the SAME religion. So tell me how you can compare apples to oranges to prove you point. Religion does not belong in politics. That doesn't mean religious people don't, but their laws and ideals based SOLEY on their beliefs do not.

One thing everyone in here needs to know the MAJORITY of people who claim "I am a christian" are truly not.  I became a true disciple a few months ago.  It is crazy to believe most people.  I do not see how you could go on top of a mountain and say there is no God, but that is just me.

Posted by HATER_PLAYER

Honestly, i'm still stuck on this:

 

The bible has historical record!

 

If you think a book that was written via a multi-generational game of 'telephone' can be historically accurate in any way possible, then i salute your ignorance.

 

this is the same guy who says SCIENCE is a theory? jeeeeezus christ (no pun intended). you say you aren;t a christian, yet you defend religion's role in matters of law?

 

it would seem that the inconsistencies and contradictions in your views over the course of this thread are painfully obvious to all but you.

Here is a nice website I stumbled upon and decided to post it here.

http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/scientific-accuracies-bible

Posted by davesc2

But allowing nothing satisifies only the atheist's agenda.

Posted by lakia

paolo, you arent posty.

This thread has downs.....

Some things never change, eh? Been absent for almost 2 yrs and all the replies/attitudes remain the same. So, I'll just add a few words for the "Johnny-come-latelys" (all you old-schoolers already know my views - like I said, some things never change).

The Bible is not a science book. It has never attempted to explain the time frame of earth's existence or the process by which the universe came to be. To say that science and God are polar opposites is just nonsense. To assume that all Christians are close-minded idiots who dismiss scientific fact is just nonsense.

For atheists to assume they're right and Christians are wrong is a bit ironic.

Even more ironic are those who praise scientific method of investigating and determining facts and then turn around and take a handful of encounters w/ Christians to be the voice of 2 billion Christians in the world.

I also find it interesting that people still have a desire to be "good" but yet refuse to believe in a higher authority. Why? If there's no creator or design, then there's no purpose. If there's no purpose, then there is no meaning. If there is no meaning, then there is no reason to behave one way or another. Furthermore, what defines "good"? Hitler's idea of racial cleansing was a good idea to him and his followers. What difference did it make if he knocked off millions of "meaningless" people? (I say this tongue in cheek and do not mean to downplay the attrocities of Halocaust, but one must ask that if there's no meaning to life then why would it have even been a big deal, right?) My point is who decided Hitler was wrong and where did that conviction initially come from?

To all my old time friends (lakia, paulo, marc, slimp)...I hope all is well w/ you guys.

Posted by toddm
Some things never change, eh? Been absent for almost 2 yrs and all the replies/attitudes remain the same. So, I'll just add a few words for the "Johnny-come-latelys" (all you old-schoolers already know my views - like I said, some things never change).

The Bible is not a science book. It has never attempted to explain the time frame of earth's existence or the process by which the universe came to be. To say that science and God are polar opposites is just nonsense. To assume that all Christians are close-minded idiots who dismiss scientific fact is just nonsense.

For atheists to assume they're right and Christians are wrong is a bit ironic.

Even more ironic are those who praise scientific method of investigating and determining facts and then turn around and take a handful of encounters w/ Christians to be the voice of 2 billion Christians in the world.

I also find it interesting that people still have a desire to be "good" but yet refuse to believe in a higher authority. Why? If there's no creator or design, then there's no purpose. If there's no purpose, then there is no meaning. If there is no meaning, then there is no reason to behave one way or another. Furthermore, what defines "good"? Hitler's idea of racial cleansing was a good idea to him and his followers. What difference did it make if he knocked off millions of "meaningless" people? (I say this tongue in cheek and do not mean to downplay the attrocities of Halocaust, but one must ask that if there's no meaning to life then why would it have even been a big deal, right?) My point is who decided Hitler was wrong and where did that conviction initially come from?

To all my old time friends (lakia, paulo, marc, slimp)...I hope all is well w/ you guys.

Posted by TheMasochist

I'm not one of your old friends?? Thanks a lot jerk!!!

Well, I've never really had any long running conversations w/ you like I have the rest of the guys here.

hey todd...when are we gonna cuddle again?

Posted by toddm

Posted by TheMasochist

I'm not one of your old friends?? Thanks a lot jerk!!!

Well, I've never really had any long running conversations w/ you like I have the rest of the guys here.

Also about Hitler...I don't get what you are trying to say to be honest. Like you think that the only reason why you shouldn't kill someone is because god exists and watching you? Do you do nice things for your friends, family, and strangers b/c you fear god or do you do them b/c you were taught by your parents that is the right thing to do. Another thing, Hitler was wrong b/c who was he to make the decision that jews are not worthy and take their lives??

No, I'm not saying people only do good because they think there's a superior being who will strike them dead if they don't. My "Hitler argument" deals w/ the moral code that all humans seem to have. How do you now what is right and what is wrong? Is it nurture or nature? If there is no meaning/purpose in this life then what difference does it make? Why do nice things? What difference does it make? You may say to make this life better and we do our part. But the deeper philosophical question still begs WHY? Who told our parents what was right and what was wrong? Who told their parents?? and on and on. The existence of morality among  human beings poses a problem, imo, because if there's not a common authority for what is good or evil then humans would have vastly different moral codes.

[Edited by toddm on 5/31/2009 at 6:19 PM]

OK, but it still avoids the question of where does this sense of morality ultimately come from? Furthermore, purpose must stem from design. The computer I'm typing on right now was designed for specific purposes. The chair I'm sitting in was designed for a purpose. Everything that we can see or touch is made for a purpose. Even a "snuggie" is made for a purpose (to get rid of those pesky blankets). The simplest things have a purpose (even a paper weight). But they only have a purpose because that's what they were designed to do. I don't see how there can be purpose when there is no design.

So, I go back to my original statement and argue that if we are just here by chance and not designed, then we have no purpose.

Posted by TheMasochist

In my opinion I don't think there is a purpose of life.

Then why do you live? I think at some level, everyone must know there's a purpose or reason for their existence.

That doesn't mean that everyone should be gunslinging and causing havoc in society. I think that's kind of a selfish act of life to fulfill.

Why not? Who defined that selfishness is wrong?

Posted by tooscoops

i think the only real problem i'm having with it is the whole, 'if we have no purpose we should be able to do what we want'... i don't understand.  why does our life's purpose have anything to do with how we treat others?

 

my reasons for living are to procreate and enjoy the earth and what it has to offer me.  not exactally as difinitive a purpose of a paperweight, but thats how i look at it.  and the only reason for the procreate part is because i want to.  so with that solid answer of "why am i here?", my life is not really full of purpose.

 

doesn't mean i'm going to go kick puppies and push an old lady down the stairs.

 

 

I don't think my view is extreme one way or the other; perhaps just a bit deeper than you guys are attempting to go. If a mangled rust bucket of a car w/ no motor is sitting in your driveway then it has ceased to have purpose. The car's manufacturer designed and made the car for a specific purpose - for people to use as transportation. If it no longer has any purpose, then why does it still sit in your driveway? Most people would get rid of it because it is obsolete, or take it out into the field and use if for target practice - it really doesn't matter what you do w/ it because it no longer has any purpose. So it is w/ life. If there's no purpose to life, then why continue to exist? You say your purpose in life is to be good to others, enjoy the earth, and procreate. Ok, fine. But WHY? It still fails to address the ultimate purpose of why should we procreate? Why should we enjoy the earth? Why should we treat others well? If there's not a purpose for life, then why should we do any of these things?

I'm okay if you guys disagree w/ me - I really am. By now, you should know that I don't let opposing views get my boxers in a bunch. But I find it very contradictory and inconsistent w/ the "chance/no design" argument for people to have purpose. You guys have both admitted indirectly that human life has value. How can something be of value and yet w/o a purpose? Furthermore, how can something have a purpose if there is no designer to designate said purpose. Like I said in my earlier post, everything that is designed is made for a specific purpose, so purpose and design go hand in hand. If there is no designer, then there can be no purpose.