Related Communities :  Central |  Ski |  Skateboard |  Snowmobile |  Mountain Bike |  Surf |  Wakeboard |  More...

Skip Navigation
You are viewing this website with either CSS support turned off, or are not using a CSS compliant browser. This will significantly reduce your Colonies.com experience.

 Advertisement Advertise With Us

Snowboard.com Forums

Search only in this forum

Inquiry into IDF strategy of indiscriminate civilian killings

Recieve Email Updates.
Verify your email to receive email notifications.
9 posts
HATER_PLAYER
"In Your Face"

Posts : 8096
OFFLINE

Posted on Mar 20, 2009

 

Soldiers’ Accounts of Gaza Killings Raise Furor in Israel
In the two months since Israel ended its military assault on Gaza, Palestinians and international rights groups have accused it of excessive force and wanton killing in that operation, but the Israeli military has said it followed high ethical standards and took great care to avoid civilian casualties.
 
Now testimony is emerging from within the ranks of soldiers and officers alleging a permissive attitude toward the killing of civilians and reckless destruction of property that is sure to inflame the domestic and international debate about the army’s conduct in Gaza. On Thursday, the military’s chief advocate general ordered an investigation into a soldier’s account of a sniper killing a woman and her two children who walked too close to a designated no-go area by mistake, and another account of a sharpshooter who killed an elderly woman who came within 100 yards of a commandeered house.
 
When asked why that elderly woman was killed, a squad commander was quoted as saying: “What’s great about Gaza — you see a person on a path, he doesn’t have to be armed, you can simply shoot him. In our case it was an old woman on whom I did not see any weapon when I looked. The order was to take down the person, this woman, the minute you see her. There are always warnings, there is always the saying, ‘Maybe he’s a terrorist.’ What I felt was, there was a lot of thirst for blood.”
 
The testimonies by soldiers, leaked to the newspapers Maariv and Haaretz, appeared in a journal published by a military preparatory course at the Oranim Academic College in the northern town of Tivon. The newspapers promised to release more such anecdotal accounts on Friday, without saying how many.
 
The academy’s director, Dany Zamir, told Israel Radio, “Those were very harsh testimonies about unjustified shooting of civilians and destruction of property that conveyed an atmosphere in which one feels entitled to use unrestricted force against Palestinians.”
 
The revelations caused an immediate uproar here, with some soldiers and reservists saying they did not recognize the stories being told as accurate.
 
Defense Minister Ehud Barak told Israel Radio that he believed such incidents to be exceptions, adding, “The Israeli Army is the most moral in the world, and I know what I’m talking about because I know what took place in the former Yugoslavia, in Iraq.”
 
It was clear that Mr. Zamir felt that his concerns, which he had raised earlier in a letter to the military chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, had not been taken seriously and that was why he published the testimonies.
 
Since the war ended, others have raised similar questions, generating a heated debate within military circles.
 
“According to the code, a soldier has to do his utmost to avoid civilian casualties and that involves taking some risk,” said Moshe Halbertal, a Jewish philosophy professor at Hebrew University who, along with three others, rewrote the military ethics code eight years ago. “That is the question we have to struggle with. From the testimonies of these soldiers, it sounds like they didn’t practice this norm.”
Amir Marmor, a 33-year-old history graduate student in Jerusalem and a military reservist, said in an interview with The New York Times that he was stunned to discover the way civilian casualties were discussed in training discussions before his tank unit entered Gaza in January. "Shoot and don’t worry about the consequences,” was the message from the top commanders, he said. Speaking of a lieutenant colonel who briefed the troops, Mr. Marmor said, “His whole demeanor was extremely gung ho. This is very, very different from my usual experience. I have been doing reserve duty for 12 years, and it was always an issue how to avoid causing civilian injuries. He said in this operation we are not taking any chances. Morality aside, we have to do our job. We will cry about it later.”
 
Some 1,300 people were killed in the Gaza war, but how many of them were combatants remains a matter of controversy. Israel lost about 10 soldiers in Gaza, some because of fire by its own forces.
 
The Gaza-based Palestinian Center for Human Rights, which has documented the Gaza deaths, says that about two-thirds of the 1,300 were civilians, among them 121 women and 288 children, which it defines as anyone 18 and younger.
 
But the Institute for Counter-Terrorism in Israel said Thursday that it had analyzed the Palestinian center’s names and found that some that it listed as civilians were identified as combatants on Hamas-related Web sites. Some listed as children were 17-year-olds with guns, it said, adding that more than 500 of those described by the center as civilians it considered “unknowns” because most were men of combat age whose activities could not be easily traced.
 
It argued that the proportion of women and children among the dead was relatively low, showing that Israel had not killed in an indiscriminate fashion.
 
Gur Rosenblat, a company commander during the Gaza operation, said in an interview: “To say that people were killed without justification — the opposite was true. We put soldiers at risk to prevent harming their civilians.”
 
Israeli experts noted that Palestinian women had served as suicide bombers in the past so that soldiers in Gaza did not always know when a woman was approaching whether she was a threat.
 
One of the soldiers’ testimonies involved the killing of a family. The soldier said: “We had taken over the house, and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left. The sniper on the roof wasn’t told that this was O.K. and that he shouldn’t shoot. You can say he just did what he was told.”
 
Much of what happened in Gaza, some military experts said, was in reaction to the way events unfolded in the second Lebanon war in 2006 when Hezbollah caused many Israeli casualties.
 
In that war, when Israeli soldiers took over a house, they sometimes found themselves shot at from a house next door. The result was that in Gaza, many houses next to those commandeered by troops were destroyed to avoid that risk.
 
Still, Israeli ethicists say they are troubled by what they have heard.
 
“Unfortunately, I think that selective use of killing civilians has been very much on the agenda for fighting terror,” said Yaron Ezrahi, a political scientist at Hebrew University who has been lecturing at defense colleges. “The army believes that a weak spot of Israeli deterrence is its strong commitment not to kill civilians, and there has grown the sense that it might have to temporarily overcome that weakness in order to restore deterrence.”
 
Wow, the IDF isn't concerned with civilian or human rights? SHOCKER.
 
where's Eitan to defend the IDF women-and-children killers now?

[Edited by HATER_PLAYER on 3/20/2009 at 1:03 PM]

lakia
"PC Partyman"

Posts : 3952
ONLINE

Posted on Mar 20, 2009

may people like hamas ad hezbollah should stop killing their women and children too. what about their rights? what about their lives? But the people that attack the isrealis are just victims right? Can do no wrong? thought so......
You know youre getting old when your ol lady says "honey lets run
up stairs and make love" and you say "sorry i cant do both!"
For True Since 1984


HATER_PLAYER
"In Your Face"

Posts : 8096
OFFLINE

Posted on Mar 20, 2009

Interesting how you choose to view it from only one side. but then again, that's all you've ever done. par for the course. status quo. 

lakia
"PC Partyman"

Posts : 3952
ONLINE

Posted on Mar 21, 2009

Posted by HATER_PLAYER
Interesting how you choose to view it from only one side. but then again, that's all you've ever done. par for the course. status quo. 
 
im amazed that in the years we have been bantering on this site, ESPECIALLY as of late, that you havent picked up on the fact that i am not choosing sides. Im looking for equal responsibility to issues. Both sides are guilty, both sides kill civilians, both sides have victims marc.
 
I remember in years past i was constantly questioned with things along the lines of "what is the difference between an american life and an iraqi". I would most oftenly and almost always answer with the fact the american life is one of my countrymens and that they came first. You would say there is no difference.
 
So marc, my question now to you, is what is the difference between the life of an isreali/palestinian/jordinian, ect ect?
 
It is a really simple question that should only require a simple answer. If you do not have it, that is fine. Even in my more conservative views, ive learned to allocate responsibility to all parties. I dont care about the damn problem anymore. I give a damn about the solution. So point fingers, and blame, demonize one side of a conflict or difference of opinon. Im done doing such things. Just looking for everyone to pick up their slack and be accountable.
 
So..........what is the difference marc? One is funded by the US? I really hope that is not the answer of a humanitarian and world peace advocate such as yourself.


[Edited by lakia on 3/21/2009 at 4:54 AM]
You know youre getting old when your ol lady says "honey lets run
up stairs and make love" and you say "sorry i cant do both!"
For True Since 1984


HATER_PLAYER
"In Your Face"

Posts : 8096
OFFLINE

Posted on Mar 23, 2009

Allocating responsibility to all parties is fine. However, most people with two eyes and a brain know that Israeli losses are quite disproportionate to the amount of oppression and suffering they mete out on a daily basis.
 
more evidence to support my side of the argument (will you ever post any to support yours?):
 
Israeli Soldiers Admit to Deliberate Killing of Gaza Civilians
 
The Israeli army has been forced to open an investigation into the conduct of its troops in Gaza after damning testimony from its own front line soldiers revealed the killing of civilians and rules of engagement so lax that one combatant said that they amounted on occasion to "cold-blooded murder".
 
The revelations, compiled by the head of an Israel military academy who declared that he was "shocked" at the findings, come as international rights groups are calling for independent inquiries into the conduct of both sides in the three-week Israeli offensive against Palestinian Islamists.

The soldiers' testimonies include accounts of an unarmed old woman being shot at a distance of 100 yards, a woman and her two children being killed after Israeli soldiers ordered them from their house into the line of fire of a sniper and soldiers clearing houses by shooting anyone they encountered on sight.

"That's the beauty of Gaza. You see a man walking, he doesn't have to have a weapon, and you can shoot him," one soldier told Danny Zamir, the head of the Rabin pre-military academy, who asked him why a company commander ordered an elderly woman to be shot.

"I gathered the graduate students of the course who fought in Gaza, to hear their impressions from the fighting. I wasn't prepared for any of the stuff I heard there. I was shocked," Mr Zamir said. "I think that the writing was on the wall, but we just didn't want to see it, we didn't want to face it."

One non-commissioned officer told Mr Zamir, himself a deputy battalion commander in the reserves, that the army "fired a lot of rounds and killed a lot of people in order for us not to be injured or shot at.

"When we entered a house, we were supposed to bust down the door and start shooting inside and just go up storey by storey... I call that murder. Each storey, if we identify a person, we shoot them. I asked myself - how is this reasonable?"

The same unnamed NCO said that his commanding officer ordered soldiers on to a rooftop to shoot an old woman crossing a main street during the fighting, which a Palestinian rights groups said left 1,434 people dead, 960 of them civilians.

"I don't know whether she was suspicious, not suspicious, I don't know her story," the NCO said. "I do know that my officer sent people to the roof in order to take her out... It was cold-blooded murder."

Another NCO recounted a military blunder that led to a mother and her two children being shot dead by an Israeli sniper. "We had taken over the house... and the family was released and told to go right. A mother and two children got confused and went left... The sniper on the roof wasn't told that this was okay and that he shouldn't shoot... you can say he just did what he was told... he was told not to let anyone approach the left flank and he shot at them.

"I don't know whether he first shot at their feet or not, but he killed them," the soldier said.

The soldiers' accounts were submitted anonymously at a meeting at the academy around a month ago. The Israel army said that it had started an investigation, but that this was the first time it had heard such testimony, despite having debriefed troops itself.

Breaking The Silence, an organisation of former soldiers who gather witness accounts from troops in the Palestinian territories, said that its own investigation into Operation Cast Lead, as the war was known in Israel, had revealed a similar picture of the fighting.

"It's definitely in line with what we are hearing," said one of the researchers.

Another disturbing element reported by the soldiers was the role of military rabbis in distributing booklets that framed the fighting as a religious war. "All these articles had a clear message: we are the Jewish people, we have come to the land by miraculous means, and now we have to fight to remove the Gentiles who are getting in our way and preventing us from occupying the Holy Land... a great many soldiers had a feeling throughout this operation of a religious war," said one soldier.

There were also accounts of soldiers being ordered to throw all the furniture out of Palestinians' homes as they were taken over.

"We simply threw everything out the windows to make room and order. The entire contents of the house flew out the windows: refrigerator, plates, furniture. The order was to remove the entire contents of the house."
 
 
Israel violated medical ethics in Gaza: report
 
Israel's army violated codes of ethics and international law during the war in Gaza by attacking medics and refusing to allow the treatment of wounded, a human rights group charged on Monday.

The actions reflect a "demonisation of Palestinians (which) bears a heavy price for Israeli society," warned a report by Physicians for Human Rights that called for an independent body to investigate the military's conduct during its 22-day Operation Cast Lead in Gaza that ended on January 18.

The Israeli army said it had not yet concluded its investigation, but that fighters from Gaza's ruling Hamas movement had battled under cover of ambulances and medical facilities.

Among the offences listed by the Israeli non-governmental organisation are "attacks on medical personnel; damage to medical facilities and indiscriminate attacks on civilians not involved in the fighting."

"Israel placed numerous obstacles in the course of the operation that impeded emergency medical evacuation of the sick and wounded and also caused families to be trapped for days without food, water and medications," the report said.

"The actions ... violate directives of international law which forbid attacks on medical centres and medical teams during fighting" and "blatantly violated codes of ethics."

During the offensive, Israeli fire killed 16 Palestinian medical personnel and wounded 25 others while eight hospitals and 26 primary care clinics were attacked, according to figures from the United Nations and the group.

Among the specific incidents cited is that of a Mr. Shurrab whose two sons were shot by Israeli forces while the trio drove toward the southern city of Khan Yunis on January 16.

"One of the sons died immediately, the other bled to death for 12 hours," it said. "All that time the Israeli soldiers were within a short distance from the Shurrabs but did not provide any assistance despite the father's repeated requests."

Such incidents reflect a general demonisation of Palestinians, a process that "reached its nadir when soldiers in an army that flaunts its morality declined to help evacuate injured civilians and trapped families, when soldiers acted in a trigger-happy manner as they opened fire on ambulances, medical installations and medical personnel."

"We have noticed a stark decline in IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) morals concerning the Palestinian population of Gaza, which in reality amounts to a contempt for Palestinian lives," said Dani Filc, the chairman of the group.

"It is critical that the investigation of Operation Cast Lead is completed by a neutral, external investigator without ties to the IDF."

The army said that it was investigating the claims in a "thorough" manner and said its forces were instructed to "act with the utmost caution in order not to cause harm to medical vehicles and medical facilities."

"Throughout the fighting, Hamas methodically made use of medical vehicles, facilities and uniforms in order to conceal and camouflage terrorist activity, and in general used ambulances to carry terror activists and weapons," it said in a statement.

"Hamas used ambulances to 'rescue' terror activists from the battlefield and used hospitals and medical facilities as hiding places."

Such actions "greatly complicated the coordination of rescue and medical evacuation.

"It must be emphasised that under international law, the protections afforded to medical teams or 'protected institutions'... cease to exist when these medical teams or institutions are not used for humanitarian purposes rather for carrying out actions intended to harm the State of Israel," the statement said.

Meanwhile, army chief of staff Lieutenant General Gabi Ashkenazi on Monday dismissed separate allegations of wanton killing of civilians during the Gaza offensive, based on soldiers' testimonies published last week.

"I do not believe that IDF troops hurt Palestinian civilians in cold blood," Ashkenazi said in a speech.

"We will wait the outcome of an investigation, but my impression is that the IDF acted morally and if such cases did take place they were isolated."
 
 

lakia
"PC Partyman"

Posts : 3952
ONLINE

Posted on Mar 23, 2009

and you used to say you were glad 9-11 happened and we deserved it. So what makes you different from the isreali's in that video? You werent wearing a shirt?
 
Im just waiting for my answer to a simple question man. Not links with many paragraphs. Youre answer if it coincides with the beliefs you have talked about on this site should be one simple word.
 
Do i need evidence that both sides are killing innocents? That has been established and has been no secret for quite some time now. I asked you a question, now stop dodging it and give me an answer.
You know youre getting old when your ol lady says "honey lets run
up stairs and make love" and you say "sorry i cant do both!"
For True Since 1984


HATER_PLAYER
"In Your Face"

Posts : 8096
OFFLINE

Posted on Mar 24, 2009

Do i need evidence that both sides are killing innocents? That has been established and has been no secret for quite some time now. I asked you a question, now stop dodging it and give me an answer.

 
Yes, they are both killing innocents....except the israeli forces are killing MANY more innocents than the hamas fighters.
 
i could find you exact nunmbers, but that would be in a link with some paragraphs that are apparently too long for you to read, so what's the point? I believe that answers the question you asked me as well.
 
the difference is akin to you punching me in the face, and then me going home and getting out a howitzer, bombing the fuck out of your home for half an hour, then going over to your grandparents' house and doing the same thing, then going to all your uncles' and aunts' houses and doing the same thing.
 
that's the difference. any more questions?

lakia
"PC Partyman"

Posts : 3952
ONLINE

Posted on Mar 24, 2009

k. so then there is a difference between the innocent life of an isreali/palestinian/jordinian/lebanese ect ect? I was hoping you were going to say nothing. But i do guess that some life matters more than others, that is what youre getting at. I expected a humanitarian like you to say there is no difference, and come to terms with the fact that both sides are not innocent, and both sides have victims.
You know youre getting old when your ol lady says "honey lets run
up stairs and make love" and you say "sorry i cant do both!"
For True Since 1984


paolosmythe
"Unemployed sulker"

Posts : 7120
ONLINE

Posted on Mar 25, 2009

Posted by lakia
I expected a humanitarian like you to say there is no difference, and come to terms with the fact that both sides are not innocent, and both sides have victims.
 
there is no difference in the lives being lost; just the disproportionality of it all.
 
the IDF have the means and the know how, to exercise extreme prejudice in neutralising all and any threats they perceive.  but instead they choose to utilise a policy of widespread death and destruction, despite knowing fully that such efforts will sustain the risks they alleged to be fighting, instead of curtailing them.
 
are Hamas etc good guys?  no.  but nobody claims that they are. 
are the IDF good guys?  no.  but many suggest that their massive efforts are justifiable. 
 
here lies the inconsistency, which is further highlighted by Isael remaining integral to the international community, whilst Hamas (and the like) aren't even acknoweldged!
STICK OPPOSITION MOVEMENT
If you want to act 'serious',
then become a skier!


9 posts

Problems, Comments, Suggestions

About |  Advertise |  Jobs |  Community Index |  Email |  FAQ |  Terms
Copyright ©2004 Colonies.com