Here we go again. It's funny how atheism is turning into it's own religion, with their own defenders of the faith and preachers. Reminds me of the Southpark episode where in the future they fight over which version of their science based faiths is correct.

You can argue until you have no more air to speak and it still won't change my mind. I look into the world with a good understanding of science, my job depends on it (computer science), and yet I still believe in the Almighty God. In fact one of the greatest computer scientists ever, Donald Knuth, believes in God also and has a few good commentaries on why with his own evidence to support it. I urge you to take the time to read them if you get the chance. These lectures particularly effected me because I come from a computer science background and the idea of systems, their abstractions, and interactions is a very real thing to me that I deal with everyday.

Let me propose an overly-simplistic example - No one knows where the universe(s) came from. So it's logical to ask where they came from. Scientists will admit readily they don't know. We can discuss big bang theory and the beginnings out of a singularity, the most widely accepted theory today, but that still doesn't answer where that came from. Saying "it just is and was" is ok, but it doesn't really satisfy the mind. Knuth puts forth in his lectures that there most certainly could be a creator of this system that resides outside of it physically, yet is capable of controlling it from top to bottom. He then provides his own evidence of the irrationality for the belief that is was a coincidence that this system simply "became" using mathematics. Specificallly he uses a few very large numbers as examples, showing the chance that the system would just "happen" is actually very unlikely. Now this doesn't prove a creator was involved. But this does provide the basis for faith in the hypothesis of a creator/creation system.

BTW, this is NOT an argument for current intelligent design. It is more like a "yes but think about it this way and telll me what you think". As Knuth says himself - it's not the destination but the journey. It's exploring the the system and finding meaning in a subject so insanely out of our grasp. But I will not accept any argument that is based on a truth that is not truthful. Saying you know for a fact that there is no God is not truthful. It's based on a faith in your own ability to understand something that no one understands.

I have my own internal conflicts daily about what I believe. But it's my choice as a man to make that decision and you preaching to me about it isn't going to change a thing. And you most certainly are preaching, spreading your "gospel" about how you know something that you do not. You do not know and you cannot prove you know scientifically. You can make a hypothesis of understanding based on assumptions. But would you agree that the data you have is, to put it mildly, woefully incomplete?

A phrase comes to mind here - Play on player, but let me live my life.



[Edited by shedao on 7/25/2009 at 8:55 PM]

Posted by ivar80
What I always find curious about people with a strong religious belief is; do they believe they would have just as strong a faith in a different religion, had they only been born into another culture?

If the answer to that is "no", then how come?

If the answer to that is "yes", then how can they claim that their religion is the "correct" one?


(Please, pretty please, someone say "yes", it could get interesting )

Yes and I'll tell you why. I have a belief in a creator, God. It doesn't make sense for a creator to only speak to one group of people but ignore another. I'm not your traditional Christian because I have doubts in men. Even if God talked directly with a man and told him to communicate what he said to others, that man would get it wrong.

Now some like Paolo would call this cherry picking, and he's right. But if I followed the Bible to a fault I would be stoning woman that didn't wear headscarves and murdering anyone that didn't believe in MY God. I don't believe that was God's intention, to divide men.

Also, you will find a lot of similarities between the major faiths, with the message being uniform - live you life based on morals, and do not harm your fellow man or the planet when you do so. I don't see any problem with this. It's when you murder for your faith, when you impose on others, forcing them to choose what you want, that you take away God's gift - the gift of choice.

Posted by shedao


Let me propose an overly-simplistic example - No one knows where the universe(s) came from. So it's logical to ask where they came from. Scientists will admit readily they don't know. We can discuss big bang theory and the beginnings out of a singularity, the most widely accepted theory today, but that still doesn't answer where that came from. Saying "it just is and was" is ok, but it doesn't really satisfy the mind. 


[Edited by shedao on 7/25/2009 at 8:55 PM]

"Fuck you"? heh, ok. Believe whatever you want to believe then. It's not my job to convince you, I was just giving you my arguments, my reasoning. You guys, and this forum, throw insults around like they are nothing. I guess I'll play the "sissy" and withdraw. Continue on with your group hate circle jerk.

Posted by TheMasochist

Posted by shedao


Let me propose an overly-simplistic example - No one knows where the universe(s) came from. So it's logical to ask where they came from. Scientists will admit readily they don't know. We can discuss big bang theory and the beginnings out of a singularity, the most widely accepted theory today, but that still doesn't answer where that came from. Saying "it just is and was" is ok, but it doesn't really satisfy the mind. 


[Edited by shedao on 7/25/2009 at 8:55 PM]

Well then where did God come from since according to you everything needs a creator?

Posted by shedao
"Fuck you"? heh, ok. Believe whatever you want to believe then. It's not my job to convince you, I was just giving you my arguments, my reasoning. You guys, and this forum, throw insults around like they are nothing. I guess I'll play the "sissy" and withdraw. Continue on with your group hate circle jerk.

Read Paolo's reply and you'll see it. It's just ironic that his posts reek of anger and intolerance and then he goes on to use intolerance from anyone religious to justify his own hatred. What exactly does this solve if you're not fighting in the name of God, but instead fighting in the name of "There is No God"? What makes that so different? His hatred infects this entire forum and that sucks. He uses the "shout them down" method along with attrition. I've been arguing with him for years.

As for the response to your post, I'm not sure is my answer. I have no clue where God came from. I think my real point is that it takes a leap of faith to know that the our universe was created through chance.

I feel like when people have been treated badly by someone in the name of religion, slighted, excluded in some way, they lash out and claim all religion is bad. Yet religion is the basis for modern society. The idea of equal rights and protection for all people came from religion, not from science. Science tells us that people don't matter, that feelings don't matter, that the bottom line the end result is all that matters. People are just molecules and feelings are just chemicals. Science tells us that "morals" are relative. That anything is ok, including murder, adultery, greed, envy, etc. Well I disagree with that. It's not ok. Religion helps us realize this, it gives us purpose. Otherwise we're all just upright apes that do whatever the hell we want. What good can come from that?

----

Snowolf, I agree with a lot of your post. I give atheists and agnostics the same respect they give me. The Christian God I worship doesn't want people to force a choice on you. As an example - my daughter is an atheist. I'm a believer. How can I "force" anything on her? And why would I? No I leave her alone and let her make her own decision to believe, or not. And in the meantime I teach her to be a good human being. "Coming to Christ" willfully is the entire basis of Christianity.



[Edited by shedao on 7/28/2009 at 2:08 AM]

I think you are misunderstanding his posts and views. i believe that Paolo is agnostic and not Atheist. He said fuck you to religion, not to you or believers in a higher power. Paolo is a dick but he is pretty smart and unbiased(at most times). He just questions every aspect of this debate which is fine.  I don't think anyone here is trying to force their views onto others and everyone is just freely expressing their views and thoughts. Even so it would be sad/silly for you or anyone else to leave this thread for good b/c of what someone said or did.  I love talking to people about this topic b/c everyone has a different reason why they believe or do not believe and it's all pretty interesting in my opinion. 

[Edited by tooscoops on 7/28/2009 at 4:06 PM]

 

Posted by shedao
Read Paolo's reply and you'll see it. It's just ironic that his posts reek of anger and intolerance and then he goes on to use intolerance from anyone religious to justify his own hatred. What exactly does this solve if you're not fighting in the name of God, but instead fighting in the name of "There is No God"?

 

Oh Mr Shed….. as you stated, we’ve been going toe to toe for quite a few years now and yet you still try to imply that I am emotionally imbalanced due to anger. The colorful language used is to emphasize a point, not because I am foaming all over my keyboard.

 

But yes I am intolerant of religious people. But whilst such people ‘fight in the name of god’, I fight in the name of those killed due to a claimed god’s will.

 

The point being made in my saying ‘fuck you’ was that if you would wish to indulge in a religion that has been parceled up and delivered to you, then sadly you are being used by its authors. If you want to indulge in philosophy, by considering all the evidence available to you and still find solace in the wishful existence of an overseer who will reward a life well spent, well good for you I suppose. But I would bet that had you gained such spiritual enlightenment, then it would not compel you to ‘spread the good word’, as you would appreciate that it is a personal voyage that must be undertaken and not preached.

 

As for the response to your post, I'm not sure is my answer. I have no clue where God came from. I think my real point is that it takes a leap of faith to know that the our universe was created through chance.

 

You suggest that the conclusion that everything came about by fluke requires faith, is simply an egocentric dismissal of the limitation we as humans have. There is no faith in concluding that existence arose by chance. It is simply stating that we do not know conclusively, but based on what we do know, such a situation is far more likely than some form of creating deity.

I feel like when people have been treated badly by someone in the name of religion, slighted, excluded in some way, they lash out and claim all religion is bad. Yet religion is the basis for modern society. The idea of equal rights and protection for all people came from religion, not from science. Science tells us that people don't matter, that feelings don't matter, that the bottom line the end result is all that matters. People are just molecules and feelings are just chemicals. Science tells us that "morals" are relative. That anything is ok, including murder, adultery, greed, envy, etc. Well I disagree with that. It's not ok. Religion helps us realize this, it gives us purpose. Otherwise we're all just upright apes that do whatever the hell we want. What good can come from that?

 

This Mr Shed, is the single greatest effort in arrogant bullshit you have ever contributed. Religion is the basis of every conflict. It is bullying and threatening and exclusive. 

 

You take offence from my tit bits of profanity and then you come in and imply that those who indulge in the logic of science lack any form of social etiquette or moral fibre? The sheer lunacy born from the irony of your statement stands as testament to the attitude of someone who seems to have lost all grasp of reality. You need to get on your knees, put your hand together and close your eyes, in the hope that guiding light directs you from chatting such bollocks.

 

Nice to hear from you again though.

[Edited by tooscoops on 7/29/2009 at 1:29 PM]

[Edited by tooscoops on 7/29/2009 at 1:28 PM]

[Edited by tooscoops on 7/29/2009 at 1:28 PM]

quit spamming us chinese man or im going to come over there and upper deck your toilet

Posted by paolosmythe

Posted by toddm
These are just basic literary rules, and for some reason everyone wants to abandon them when it comes to reading the Bible.

 

but the bible is not just a piece of literature now is it?

 

 

I don't believe I stated anywhere that it was just a piece of literature, however, that doesn't mean that certain literary rules do not apply.

Posted by tooscoops
 

our morals are not soley decided by religion.  in fact, for many, they are 0% affected by it.  role models, politics, our own reactions to things... these all have just as much if not more impact on our morals.  i know i'd be sad/angry if my wife cheated on me, so why would i inflict that pain on her?  no god had to exist for me to make that decision.  i could go on with this, but if anyone really needs me to, you are really missing the point.  sure religion CAN teach you some of that stuff, but it can also teach you an eye for an eye, incest, and sexism.  yippee.  religion is just one added way someone can obtain their moral fibre if they so choose.

Ok, but why would you be sad/angry? Why is it wrong? I think you guys are missing the point on how morality equates to God. I'm not saying that you have to have religion in order to determine what is right or wrong. What I'm attempting to do is take it back a step (or two) further and ask the "why" question. Cultures and different belief systems generally believe (as a whole) that adultery is wrong, but why? Because it hurts people? Why does it hurt them? Because it's wrong? Who said it was wrong? You see, it seems to me that there has to be a moral law giver, otherwise, we wouldn't feel bad about anything because it's all relative.

Many atheists argue that society dictates morality. If you dare to take this position, then I must ask you this - what if in 50 yrs from now society agreed that slavery was once again acceptable? Would that make it moral? If society dictates morality, then you must answer "yes" to this question. If society doesn't dictate what is moral or immoral, then what/who does?

Again, I'm not saying that you need religion/Bible/etc to be told what is right or wrong. I'm merely asking that if we all have a sense of morality (atheists, Buddhist, Christians, Muslims, etc), then where did it come from and how is it that humans largely agree on the general moral issues?