Well we don't have enough inflaming topics here I feel.  So, let's hear some views on abortion.  I am alright with it personally, but if my girl aborted my child I would lose it and not sure how far i would go to punish her.



I'm not against the anit-abortionist, just against people who can't argue back in a sensible manner.

Abortion is a sticky situation, and I refuse to say if it should be legal or illegal.  I hate to say it, but I have to stick with the liberals on this one.  It's the mothers choice.  But, being the Christian that I am, I have to say that abortion is still murder.  What kills me is not the topic of abortion, but the idea of abortion as a form of birth control.
We live in a society where "if it feels good do it" is the motto.  Sex outside of marriage is as common as owning a car.  With all that sex, there is bound to be a broken rubber, a time when the pill did not work, etc.  So abortion has become birth control.  "I got pregnant."  "That's okay, we can have it aborted."  That is not the right mentality.
Now, a women who was raped and ends up being pregnant... again, her choice.  She can raise the child, love and nurture the child, or she can throw it in the dumpster, send it to a lab and use it for stem cell research, put the child up for adoption and let a couple who can not conceive their own child have the joy (and pain) of raising a kid.
If we ourselves act responsibly, abortion would not be an issue.  The purpose of sex is to create life.  The place for that is in wedlock.
The whole world is being deceived into thinking that we can do whatever we want and there will be no consequences.  If you have sex enough times, you will eventually become pregnant or get your girl pregnant.  If you are not willing to raise the child, you should not be having sex.  Plain and simple.

and why does the ability to create viagra exist?  Surely god would not allow it if we were supposed to only use sex to procreate!

Religion demonizing sex was actually a good population control for a while.  It's when us heathens started to over bread and preach our values of "if it feels good do it" that the population really exploded.

I just assumed when "they were" or "god" was making up rules that we view some as arbitrary and some as good advice that the "sex is bad!" rules was put in to slow down the growth of population.  Obviously those preaching that aren't going to tell the people the reason behind the rules true meanings, they are just going to make them complicated enough like say go forth and multiply and then no sex before marriage makes the multiplying hard by making marriage a stepping stone to going forth and multiplying.  Otherwise guys would go have 10 babies with 10 girls instead of the just 10 babies with one girl.

An excellent argue me against abortion there! wait against??? that sounded a lot like you were for it actually. 

So, you are against it as birth control, but for it if it was a mistake or a rape?  I don't think I ever heard a couple go "well we planned this and decided to get pregnant, but we are just going to get an abortion now for the hell of it."

what sort of mistakes are you talking?  breaking of a condom?
Abortion Clinic Staff person: "was it a mistake, like a broken condom?"
Girl wanting the abortion: "no, we just had unprotected sex with not contraceptives at all."
Staff member: "sorry it is only for people that had mistakes happen."
Girl: "oh, i'm sorry I was confused about the question, I meant to say yes."
Staff member: "oh ok, right this way then."

or she could always go to another place and just answer the question "properly"

What about the rape girls then?  Just make it legal for rapes?
same thing, what is stopping girls from just saying they got raped to get one?

sorry girlie either you are for them or against them and you my dear are for them!  Don't worry you don't have to go protest for pro choice or promote it in anyways.  There are plenty of people that don't do shit about what they believe in.

Posted by paolosmythe

Posted by hall3p11
The purpose of sex is to create life.

then why is it that humans are able to procreate long before they have the capability to nurture, or so long after the ability to sustain parenting adequately?

Have you ever seen a toddler walking around holding a doll?  We have the ability from a young age to care for others, but somewhere along the lines we lose sight of looking out for others and start looking out for numero uno, self.  It's when people meet that "special someone" and want to have kids that we start looking out for others (husband/wife and kids).  Now this does not hold true across all of society.  There are teenager mothers that keep their kids and raise them with love, but there are also teenage mothers who have a baby, and then have their parents raise it because they can't be bothered to.  Every one is different, and so are our values, which is why you have liberals and conservatives, christians and athiests, muslims and catholics.
Also, I would like to point out that a long time ago, we had arranged marrages.  Families lived together and helped raise families.  It was common for girls reaching puberty to be married off for land, cows, and other possessions, to a man that could have been twice her age.

"I hate to talk about the Bible and God on these forums because no one cares.  But here's my point.  Sex is not said to be bad in the Bible.  Sodomy, yes.  Sex, no.  But there are guidelines for sex.  Basically, not with anyone and everyone, but with your spouse(s).  Yes, back in the day people would take more then one wife.  Glad we don't USUALLY do that today.  Could you image going home to your 10 wives (all of them living together in one house) and all of them bitching you out for leaving the toilet seat up?  All of them ragging it at the same time....   No thanks, I'll pass."



I care.

And yeah, 10 wives, NO WAY, someones leaving in a body bag

Posted by hall3p11

Have you ever seen a toddler walking around holding a doll?

In my opinion

Abortion is NOT a black and white topic. We can't say yes or no to it. There are all these mitigating circumstances that the mother might be in.
I noticed that the American politics hold the view that it's either right or wrong full stop. I think that is a ignorant way to look at the world.
I can genuinely understand women who have been raped getting an abortion, because to bare the child of a man who physically and mentally scared you for life, could be more than torturous. That man who did rape the woman shouldn't have his seed anywhere (I'm pro-chemical/physical castration against multi-rape offenders).

But then there's the other people, the people who couldn't be bothered wearing protection (can offord it, but don't) having sex, the woman falling pregnant, and just aborting. That doesn't sit well with me. It was there choice to take that chance, rape victims didn't have a choice.
I can understand the anti-adoption view that some of you have taken, yes it would be tough on the mother to go through birth and give the child away, however, giving the child up for adoption may make a couple who are unable to produce their own child, happy. I guess it's a weigh up. But like I said, it's never black and white.

There is one other group of people that I don't agree with, and that's the 'wait about six months then abort crowd'. Basically they are waiting for the egg to form something that resembles a baby, then killing it. I ask, why wait that long to abort? There are very effective abortion methods to make the egg and sperm that have connected, ineffective and just die, much the same as the morning after pill. However, I concede that it does depend on the situation of the person, and again not balck and white.

On a side note, in the video the guy was asking if the women who get abortions should be punished if it were illegal. Of course they shouldn't. It's like drugs - police don't care about users, they care about mass distributors or people trafficking it. Women in this analogy are the users. The doctors should be the ones going to jail, if it were illegal. Also, by making it illegal, it means not having the aim to arrest people, but to prevent it by closing down abortion clinics.
However, I'm not saying it should be illegal or legal because it's never that simple.

There's my $0.02



[Edited by aussiebacon on 07/03/2009 at 16:55]

oh cool aussie you last par there about closing down the clinics is a great plan.  I think forcing women that want an abortion to use coat hangers and drink poisons to abort their baby is not a punishment as well

I hate people who use religion as a basis for all their decisions.  Religion has no place in the lives of rational human beings.  People can have moral values without being religious.  That being said, I personally don't agree with abortion.  I knew someone in high school that had something like 3 abortions before she eventually dropped out.  An example of using it as birth control?  You bet!  Another girl I knew was so high on ecstasy she didn't know the father of her child.  She waited 7 months before she decided to abort.  She had to have it done in the States because at the time they didn't do them that far along in Canada.  (I don't know about now)  That's disgusting.  My husband and his twin brother were born at 6 months!  I got pregnant before I was ready.  I kept the baby and I'm so glad I did.  I love my daughter.  On the other hand, I wouldn't want some crackhead whore to keep a baby she wouldn't have a prayer of caring for.  I say, if you're going to fuck around, take responsibility for yourself and the unborn, get a vasectomy or your tubes tied.  They should have those kinds of clinics instead of abortion clinics.

Humans and Dolphins are the only animals that have sex for fun.

Did I mention I'm not on here very much?  And does it matter, this place almost seems dead compared to what it was a few years back.  That said, I had to pop back in, see where things were going and possibly defend myself.

Joy_Drop and Lakia, Thumbs UP!  Agreed, have some responsibility!  That's what my whole point was to begin with.  paolosmythe, like the Icon, agree with the title, and...   you're taking some of my quotes out of context.  But fuck, all the good democrats do that.    Doll thing, was pointing out that we have an inborn nature to care for others.  Have you ever meesed up the first time you tried something?  Same with a TODDLER with a DOLL.  Toddler also has the attention span of well... a two year old.  Picks up a doll, walks around for a bitl, sees the crayons and the coloring book, drops doll, goes to color.  But as mature people, we don't drop the baby to go color, unless you're efed up on all sorts of drugs, then you should have had the abortion anyways because you are not fit to reproduce.



No, the point we start looking out for ouselves is when we hit puberty and rebel against what we are told to do and decide to do what we WANT to do, because we want to do it.  Sorry buddy.  You fail.  The introduction to religion and a fiery hell if anything is supposed to scare you into doing what is right, not forcing you to go the other way.  But maybe you're experience was different.

       not in the west with wholesale divorce

and why do we have wholesale divorce?  I'll let you decide that one.

it is theoretically an ideal situation of mutual 'ultruism' and thus co-operation.... until that is, an individual dares to act as such and defy such traditions!  (of course such a die hard do as we say was also open to corruption of morality and horrendous crimes of abuse.)


Big words, you lost me.  I'm only a back woods Bilbe thumper with a High School education.  But if I understand you right, you summed up how ancient civilizations worked.  Good job.

"Lynch pin of my argument" - Responsibility, accountability, sex has a purpose (reproduction)...   ah nevermind.  If you don't get it yet, you wont.  It is fun, but it has a purpose, to reproduce.  Sex = Baby.  Baby = Responsibility.  Therefore!  Sex = Responsibility.  If you can't handle responsibility, don't have sex.

until the process of labour and the actual act of giving birth.... but then of course a male-centric set of religious values can overlook that slightly 'less than fun' inconvenience hhmmm?

Pain in child birth is mentioned in the Book of Genesis (first book in the Bilbe in case you didn't know).  I think you can understand the NIV pretty well, it's easy to read.  (Genesis 3)  Let me sum up prior to the verse.  Garden of Eden, Man communes with God, Man sins, finds himself naked, hides from God.  God talks to Adam and Eve and the Serpent.  Gen. 3:16a, "To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children"

Pain in childbirth is (ready?  i know you will love to jump on this out of context phrase) a curse from God for the original sin that we had on Earth.  So yes, sex is fun, and yes it hurts later on.  Hurts the gilf during child birth, hurts the guy when the wife bitches about money and bills and all that.  They get the physical pain, we get the mental pain.

"Child sacrifice, rape, incest"    yes.  But by who and in what context?  Don't forget, King David commited adultury and was still used by God.  Man sins, it's inevitable.  The Jewish people (God's chosen people) had a temendous tendency to follow God, then go with the world.  Then follow God, and....   you get the picture.  Child sacrifice was part of pagan religions.  God called upon Abram to sacrifice his son, but at the last moment (when Abram was about to kill his son) He stopped him and provided a better sacrifice.

I've said my peace.  Rip me apart again if you like, I'll offer more comebacks.

K. I've got class right away so won't go on a long diatribe but seriously folks, those of you who said it's being used as birth control by people to lazy or cheap to by a condom or a pill? How many people do you know who do this!?!? Personally I'd much rather dish out the couple bucks for a pack of condoms then the few hundred for an abortion! That is just a lame excuse for anti- abortionistes. I could never really see myself in the position of going to have sex and being like:

Like I know it's done but seriously how many people actually count on it as a birth control option. I think a lot more people are willing to drink and drive then get a chick preggo.... (not me! I hate drinkers and drivers.... when combined... not separate... i'm slightly.... drunkd now so this is probably not making much senseo) but c'mon guys think that the worst thing from sex is pregnancy... i'm not kidding... it's programmed in... don't argue it! y'know it's like would you rather crabs or a kid... lots of guys are like "well i can get shampoo for the craps..." kid ain't going away that easily. Theres my drucken politiks ramble.

Like I know it's done but seriously how many people actually count on it as a birth control option. I think a lot more people are willing to drink and drive then get a chick preggo.... (not me! I hate drinkers and drivers.... when combined... not separate... i'm slightly.... drunkd now so this is probably not making much senseo) but c'mon guys think that the worst thing from sex is pregnancy... i'm not kidding... it's programmed in... don't argue it! y'know it's like would you rather crabs or a kid... lots of guys are like "well i can get shampoo for the craps..." kid ain't going away that easily. Theres my drucken politiks ramble.